Realistic life after grad school

[alect006]

Originally posted by Maijodojo:
So I had a meeting with the film teacher at my university today to discuss the film industry, film school, etc. She said that if you want to be a successful director in the U.S. (as in hollywood type success) you pretty much have to go to USC, UCLA, NYU, or AFI. Is there truth to that? Is it not possible for someone to go to a place like FSU or UT-Austin and end up being successful?

No, there is no truth to that. Robert Rodriguez went to UT Austin, Spielberg went to CSU Long Beach, Woody Allen was expelled from NYU, Quentin Tarantino watched a tonne of movies while working at a video store before writing Reservoir Dogs, and the list goes on. Obviously there are numerous directors (Coppola, Lucas, Zemeckis etc.) that were successful after attending the top tier film school but its not any guarantee. Personally I believe to stand any chance of "making it" you have to work every angle, and not solely rely on the institutions to create a career for you. If it's what you absolutely want to do, then don't let some teacher's opinion get in your way, just put everything you have into it, go to FSU if that's what you want and go be a filmmaker .

 

[Jayimess]

Great advice, Katie.

Maji, I personally find your professor's advice way off base. Not all successful directors went to those schools, and going to those schools is not guarantee of success.

 

[daniel_cb]

You can look at the history of successful directors and see how they came up from working part time jobs to being the next big thing, but the nice thing about life is you can choose your own way. Anything is possible! To me going to film school will be an opportunity to turn weaknesses to strengths, and become more focussed and directional overall, two key attributes directors need to get their visions out to the world stage.

The right mentor is key regardless of what film school you go to. Having a tutor/professor recognise and nurture your talent is paramount to your film school experience, compared to whether you shoot on a RED camera or go to a big name brand film school.

And last, networking/internships etc are crucial. You can have all the talent in the world, but if you don't know the right people to get your ideas out there, what the point! That's why film school isn't just about learning as much as possible it's also a time to try and penetrate the film industry, which without university backing would be very difficult to break in to. I may joke about becoming a male gigolo, but at the same time holding an MFA in film doesn't provide the security of a law degree, you just have to work your ass off whether learning, netowrking, or whatever else. I still think it's worth the gamble. But then again I'm an optimist

 

[Maijodojo]

Oh goodness I feel so lost. I thought I had finally made up my mind to go to grad school and take that route to a hopeful future career in film.

However over the past week or so, my intense hatred for school has come back up. I used to feel that school was this huge weight on my shoulders that kept me in a bad mood and hindered what I wanted with my life. for that reason and numerous others I took a year off school to figure out what I wanted to do with my life. It was at that point I decided I wanted to pursue film and I basically decided I want to move out to L.A. and just go for it. That was of course until I met the woman I will now be marrying. She convinced me I should go back to school and at least get a bachelors degree. I was ok with this for a while, but right now I just feel myself wanting to get away from school.

This would have some benefits in that she will be graduating this coming spring (1 year ahead of me) and our plan right now was she was going to try to find a job around here, which considering she is graphic design won't necessarily be easy since we don't live in a very design oriented area. However there are thousands of design jobs in l.a. so she would probably have an easier time finding a job there. Therefore if I decided to drop out and go to l.a. she could get a job and hopefully support us for a few years until I could maybe start making some money to help out. However I should say she is very much against this idea as she really thinks I should get a degree so I would have it as backup. But honestly i'm not sure I can last another 1 1/2 years of painful undergrad. Grad school would be wonderful im sure, but right now im stuck doing stuff I am not interested in, and it takes up all of my time and leaves me no time to pursue film to the degree that I want.

I just really don't know what to do...

 

[Impossible Protagonist]

Maijodojo,
I've been following this discussion and I feel the need to insert my $0.02.

Anywhere where you go, grad school is going to be a huge expense. Even with a full ride scholarship, you're still taking yourself out of the workforce for 2+ years. It's an large, risky investment. Very risky, since there is no guarantee you'll get work after the MFA.

You keep mentioning all of these things you want to balance with school, but these balances are tricky at best. It's simply not a good idea to try and build a family while attending one of these programs. Something has to give.

Basically, what I'm trying to say, is this. If you don't want, with every fiber of your being, to go into one of these programs, then don't. It's too big a price tag, both physically and fiscally, to endure if it's not 100% what you want.

That's my take, for what it's worth.

 

[Maijodojo]

I have a question that might be a bit odd...but what is the benefit of having a bachelors degree in the film industry? Obviously society says that everyone must have a bachelors degree or they are a failure, but when going into the film industry does it really matter? Or is it only good for a backup plan?

 

[Chris W]

Well... I definitely don't get jobs because people look at my resume (speaking of which - there aren't really classic resumes in editing - just reels and credit lists .... but that's a tangent) they don't say - oh you graduated with a BS from Boston University in Film - you're hired!

My physical degree means nothing in the business.

BUT - and this is a big BUT - if I didn't go to BU for film, then I probably wouldn't have gotten my internships, which then led to real jobs, which then led to other jobs and started the domino effect to where I am now.

Film School leads to contacts in the business. (not to mention alot of fun making films while you're in school)

It's not the path for everyone - but it is a path.

If I didn't go to film school.... would I be where I am now? I don't know.

But if I didn't go to film school then I probably wouldn't have had the drive to go where I am now.

But if it didn't work out - then I'd theoretically have a big student loan and a worthless degree - but these are the risks one takes.

 

[RME]

Let me tell you what you are looking for...you want a *guarantee* ...and there is absolutely no such thing, especially in Hollywood. I have a good deal of real world experience for you that I think you would be wise to read and consider.

I am a Parsons grad (back when it was connected with OTIS in LA). I went to college in LA and Europe, and worked as an Art Director in the entertainment industry for many, many years. I am going to give you the GOOD, the BAD and the unfortunate...UGLY. When you are finished reading my post, which I truly hope you do, you need to make a bee-line down to the bookstore for a copy of a book called 'The Artists Way' by Julia Cameron. Don't be freaked out that she uses the term God...I am *not* religious and neither of us is trying to convert you to anything...just read it. It is NOT a religious book. The reason I am suggesting this as mandatory reading for you is that at some point in your life, IF you do walk away from your dream, it WILL haunt you for the rest of your life...and don't think this will get any prettier when you are married for 20 years, pushing 40 with 2 kids and you have to take out the trash everyday and working at some admin. job for some nameless, faceless corporation constantly threatening to outsource you.

I am blissfully married to the love of my life for 20 years now and we have 2 beloved children, so I am not some old, bitter spinster trying to scare you...and I DID live and fulfill my dreams...but I can tell you, even the best of marriages cannot withstand one party feeling unfulfilled...and if filmaking is **truly** in your soul, you are a fool to ignore it. Marriage and family are a BEAUTIFUL thing, but it will NEVER fill that void inside of you that is your purpose in this life...it was never meant to. No one else can live your life for you. They can live it *with* you, but they cannot become that burning purpose. READ THE ARTISTS WAY and DON'T spend the rest of your life as a shadow artist...

Working in Hollywood in any capacity takes a HUGE leap of faith. There is simply no other way around that. Sorry.

The reason I am even here at this forum is because I was doing a search on AFI and graduate school because I have a friend whose son is about to graduate from a *small*, relatively unheard of on the west coast, east coast school and just gave me the rundown about how if he can get into AFI for graduate school...he will be **guaranteed** a full fledged job and with it unbridled success and SECURITY...to of course pay off all of that education debt...before he even graduates. They made it sound like law schools who line up to recruit out of Harvard. I was shocked and frustrated with their unaffected simplicity regarding this matter while trying to explain that this is NOT quite how Hollywood works.

First of all...have you even LOOKED into a grad program at a school like UCLA??? Let me tell you why I ask...I had a very prestigious job with a huge studio and my husband is an Ivy League and Law School grad both with good jobs. At some point, he was looking into going to UCLA to get his MFA and it was going to cost about $100,000K. And please keep in mind, we were CA natives...and you are OUT OF STATE, which will make your tuition costs that much higher, not to mention the economic collapse, which is pushing tuition even higher. It was a minimum 3 year program and the tuition at the time (about 13 years ago) was, I believe, around $25k a year...factor in books and mandatory trips he was going to have to take, not to mention our loss of income since he could never have done his regular job AND completed this program...and we were looking at about $100k.

Even with my relatively HIGH salary, supporting oneself in Los Angeles, CALIFORNIA **AND** paying for tuition??? 2 cars, there is no real public transportation...have you even looked at rent in LA?....cost of living...Unless you're pulling in a good, solid 6 figures, you're going to be hurting badly trying to support yourselves to get through grad school there. PERIOD. I am from LA and my husband a San Francisco native, so we are very familiar with the high cost of living in CA...and I'm not sure you are.

You will most likely graduate with more debt than will be humanly possible to ever pay off...at the exact same time you'd like to start buying a house and having kids...it's a bad combo...so be careful. Biological clocks do start ticking...that's just a fact of life. Especially since there is a 99% chance you won't be making nearly enough money to make this happen, barring a miracle. NOT that a miracle cant happen...like it did with Matt Damon and Ben Affleck...but you don't want to find out that you are not going to be the next Ben & Matt, and are not the kind of person who can live with a lifetime of education debt AFTER you've already committed to it.

LET ME TELL YOU WHY... Because the Steven Spielbergs of the world...the Quentin Tarantinos and the Coppolas...they NEVER ASKED ANYONE IF THEY SHOULD GO TO LA TO BECOME FILM MAKERS. It was in their blood, it was their passion, their destiny, and NOTHING...not fear of a *stable job* (in LA??? LOLOL) nor true love was going to get in their way of obtaining their dream. Trust me...Los Angeles is FILLED with people who are there to live the dream...and willing to do ANYTHING to make that happen...including but not limited to....living in their cars, taking out giant amounts of debt, funding films on their credit cards, waiting tables 7 days a week and walking away from anything or anyone who gets in the way of that.

Just the fact that you are entertaining the idea of *I don't know if I should because it might not give me a stable salary so I can get married and support a family* tells me that you will NEVER be able to compete with the people in Los Angeles who EAT, SLEEP, LIVE & BREATHE FILM while living in their cars to do it. While you are contemplating doing this...there are MILLIONS of young film makers who are out DOING IT. They are already ahead of you. I don't think you quite get how serious these people are about their careers.

"Maybe" or "I'm not sure" or "No" or "I'm scared" isn't even in their vocabulary.

Now...what film school WILL give you...contacts and more contacts. The people you will work with everyday in school are destined to be your peers in the workplace. This time you spend together will give you exposure in the simplest sense...you will make friends who will remember your work...and your work *ethic*...NO ONE in LA likes a lazy person who doesn't complete a job on schedule. People will get to know you...they will know your work, and they will remember what it was like to work WITH YOU. When they have a project they are working on...are they going to call the stranger they've never met or are they going to call the guy they were in school with whom they KNOW is going to pull through for them?

Every single job I was ever hired for began with the words..."I noticed on your resume you went to Parsons..." My husband can say the exact same thing about his jobs and his Ivy league credentials. So to say that *where* you go to school doesn't matter...well, it doesn't.... until it does... Every OTHER job I got after that was connected to someone I had worked with who knew me and liked me and knew I did a great job and I NEVER missed a deadline. THIS is the *essence* of WHO YOU KNOW. It's not just knowing someone that counts...it's who you remember...and what do you remember...and the people you remember are not just going to be those you KNOW...they are going to be those you liked and who did a good job.

NOW...here is the other side of this story...I knew an UN-GODLY number of extraordinarily successful people who not only didn't go to film school, or graduate school...they didn't even go to college! I have a close friend who is a phenomenally successful and famous writer for TV and films who didn't even graduate high school. She started writing and submitting when she was about 18 and never looked back. She's written and created several TV shows for MAJOR networks, owns a gorgeous little house in West Hollywood that cost a small fortune, and has more work than she can keep up with. She *never* ASKED ANYONE **IF** she should....she just DID IT.

There was another husband and wife team of writers I knew who made sandwiches and walked around to the studios selling them every day (they had the BEST sandwiches!!!)...until one day when they sold a script for $500k and got an option for another 20 films.

Or...the guy who was a BIKE MESSENGER...yes, you read correctly...who *happened* to live in the apartment next door to a couple of designers who started a big studio in LA and made it big. He happened to know someone at one of the big studios because he delivered packages to them everyday. He set up a meeting between the designers and the studio and the rest was history...they have dozens of EMMY Awards now and one of the most successful studios in LA now. The bike messenger was hired as a producer there and is now big time at another studio...

THESE are the kinds of stories I have heard more often than not. I have NEVER, EVER heard of or known someone who was hired by a studio and became successful *because* they went to such and such school and were *recruited* for their brilliance right out of grad school and offered a perfect salary to go with it all tied up with a pretty red bow. If you want that...go to Harvard Law.

However...for me...this is the BRILLIANCE of Hollywood. The fact that ANYONE REALLY CAN MAKE IT. It happens every day...and if you are someone who just spent $100k on grad school because you thought it was going to be your golden ticket into a successful, family supporting career...you will spend the rest of your life angry and resentful at the thousands of people you will meet who, in your eyes, will have made it *unfairly*.

In LA...long, long, long hours....I spent innumerable hours sleeping at my desk and I knew a LOT of people who were pregnant and had 3 kids at home because they had to be on a set at 3 am....LOTS of hard work, a willingness to do ANYTHING to get the job done...a passion to get the job done on time and above and beyond anything anyone expected... THAT is what will get you ahead in the entertainment industry.

I have to agree with your girlfriend...I know for a fact that most companies these days won't even hire you to ANSWER THE PHONES without a Bachelors degree. That will prevent you from supporting yourself while trying to get funding to make your films, or actually make your films.

I have several nieces and nephews who graduated with honors from outstanding and prestigious CA colleges...ie: UCLA, UCSB, Cal Poly SLO, etc... who still ended up with tedious, low level PA (production assistant) jobs that they've busted their hump at for YEARS while trying to work their way up.... WHY would any company...ie: MTV or Paramount, CBS, VIACOM, or Disney...WHY would they hire you without a Bachelor's degree when they've got 7,000 people applying WITH a Bachelor's???

And why, you're asking, would you even WANT one of those low level PA positions, or admin positions at CBS in the first place??? Because you will make a LOT more money there to support yourself, you will get medical insurance AND you will make a whole hell of A LOT more connections there than you will waiting tables at Louise's. AND finally, if, in the end you aren't the next Steven Spielberg, you will have years invested in a career and retirement.

My advice...get your BA or BFA, which ever it is. Why not transfer to a school like UCLA for your Bachelor's in the first place??? A Master's - in my opinion - is for people who have a trust fund to burn....in which case, they probably don't even need the connections to make it....OR, it's for those who don't know HOW to go about getting from A to B in the film world ....and who want to PROCRASTINATE and put off just getting out there and MAKING IT HAPPEN.

More than film school or degrees...you are going to need NERVE...MOXIE...and A LOT of it. If you don't have that, I'm sorry to say, you are probably going to get your lunch eaten in Los Angeles.

On the bright side...LA is a City of ARTISTS...it is FILLED with them...screen writers, costume designers, actors, musicians, set designers, etc....the creative energy there is like no place else on the Earth. And once you are connected, you will find the largest creative support system on the planet.

I am currently living on the east coast and feel like I am breathing sand creatively on most days. For artists, there is no place else like Los Angeles. The entire economic engine of LA IS, essentially, ART.

For those who have the courage to go for it and follow their dreams and put in the time and give everything they've got, there will eventually be a payoff far beyond just a paycheck. You CAN **build** a life and career for yourself, but it is NEVER going to be a straight line...it is NEVER going to be going from A to B to C to D....it is NEVER going to be a LINEAR path. It is going to take everything out of you and take more turns than Laurel Canyon, BUT, it will fulfill you creatively in ways you never even dreamed of. It will nourish your soul.

I have known a LOT of people who supported families as animators or art directors or lighting designers, or even as no name character actors (my college roommates Dad...who put she and her sister through college and bought a house on it). If you can go there with a dream, passion and a willingness to do whatever it takes no matter what the cost, it will be an amazing journey for you.

But if you're looking for some kind of guarantee of success and financial stability via a graduate degree and by following some *formula*, you're in for a lot of anger, heartache and frustration.

I believe there is no other place or career in the world as wonderful and magical as the entertainment industry, and I feel privileged every day that I had the opportunities I did in my life. It's not for everyone, but for those of us fortunate enough to do it, I think it's the best business in the world.

I truly wish you the very best in whatever path you choose. Good luck and I hope that my .2cents helped even a little bit.

 

[Chris W]

@ RME - Awesome post.

 

[Mr. Ae]

Good post RME and I'm happy for your bliss. However, let the guy be talked into doing something he doesn't really want to do by his woman. That is called compromise. It's what you should expect in committed relationships. You are at a distinct disadvantage already. Face it. Stare at it. Ponder. You don't really want the reality of the journey that lies ahead. Failure can teach you something you seem not to grasp now. What's it going to cost?

Oh, RME your wrong about success from film school. If anything borrowing money at 4 percent is why the smartest at these schools who don't have money enroll in a grad program. You can't max out credit cards if you don't have a descent line of credit. It's also hard to top the rich kids connections who go to these top schools. Did I mention there is a lot of failures at these schools? Chalk it up to bad luck or relying on too little to get by. That bike messenger guy or whatever, money isn't success. That script becoming a movie that helps change someone's life, to me that's a success.

Van Gogh cut off his ear. Art for art's sake sucks big ones.

 

[Mr. Ae]

A little attention maybe would have done him some good. It wasn't literal. Context. Please.

 

[Silverlenz]

Well , ladies and gentlemen I thought it would be fitting to bring back this thread since several of us have received acceptance letters/emails/facebook notifications from schools we replied to. I was wondering if anyone of you guys who care to speak about your REALISTIC GOALS AFTER GRADUATE SCHOOL.

Silverlenz

 

[ZackDunborn]

....facebook?

oh dear god.

 

[Silverlenz]

Yup... I was surprised about that one to. I think it was mentioned in the Boston University thread.. lol

Silverlenz

 

[ZackDunborn]

wow. imagine that. i feel like marty mcfly.

 

[Silverlenz]

like a what???????

 

[jason.georgio]

"A Master's - in my opinion - is for people who have a trust fund to burn....in which case, they probably don't even need the connections to make it....OR, it's for those who don't know HOW to go about getting from A to B in the film world ....and who want to PROCRASTINATE and put off just getting out there and MAKING IT HAPPEN."

Haha those kids don't know what they're doing getting an education! Silly them.

 

[Silverlenz]

Jason,

Which one are you? The student with a trust fund or the student who doesn't know how to make it from A-B?

SilverLenz

 

[Generallyspeaking22]

Does an MFA in screenwriting help you get one of those highly sought after development jobs? I would think so, but I just wanted other people's opinions.

As an aside, I understand some of the points that RME is trying to make, but she sounds like she's from a generation where college wasn't considered necessary.

If you have 2,000 MFA's going for a job, why hire the BFA's? That's what today is pretty much like. At least if you're going for desirable work.

 

[Julian Walker]

Originally posted by Generallyspeaking22:
Does an MFA in screenwriting help you get one of those highly sought after development jobs? I would think so, but I just wanted other people's opinions.

As an aside, I understand some of the points that RME is trying to make, but she sounds like she's from a generation where college wasn't considered necessary.

If you have 2,000 MFA's going for a job, why hire the BFA's? That's what today is pretty much like. At least if you're going for desirable work.

the thing is, though, someone who jumped into the industry after undergrad WILL have more industry experience than someone who was out of the workforce for 2-5 years in an MFA program. from what i have experienced through netwroking with industry professionals, an MFA doesnt weigh as much in many instances. they want someone who has a track record of getting the job done and not a sense of ego and entitlement.

however, the reason i'm seeking an MFA is to become a better artist and hone my voice. i think alot of people who say "just go to LA and make it happen" arent speaking from the artistic POV as much as they are from the business POV. Anyone can be trained to set up shots and get the job done, but not everyone can be an artist.