Question - weighing cost of film school

[AshleyM]

I got accepted into Chapman for the MFA program, but am having a hard time deciding to go there because of the huge cost and amount of money that I'd owe when done (more than 50k, at least). I'm also not sure I want to work in LA.

So, I'm considering a cheaper state school, like San Francisco State. I'd have to apply next year, and was already rejected once for the MA program, but would try again for the MFA next year.

What do you think of that? Is it smarter to go for SFSU, which would cost a lot less? I haven't yet been accepted into the school, so the risk there is possibly not getting in at all.

My ultimate goal is to teach at the community college level and do some work in filmmaking. What I like about SFSU is that everyone has to teach, first unpaid, then paid.

Thanks, all, for your thoughts.

 

[Lame Forum Name]

A degree from Chapman carries more weight when compared to the equivalent from SFSU. And really, how much difference in cost are we talking? 25K at most? You'll be paying these loans off for the next 20 years. When it's spread out, even 50K is not going to hurt as much as you may think.

It sounds like you need to sit down and seriously consider the direction you want your life to go. Chapman will open all kinds of doors, doors that may remain closed should you opt for SFSU. And you're still young (we all are). You might decide in a few years that working in LA is exactly what you want. So why put limits on yourself for the sake of pinching pennies?

I'm not trying to be flippant, make no mistake. I understand better than anyone the cost/return juggling one does when thinking about grad school. The way I rationalize it, I'm already in the hole 100K from undergraduate, with a degree in English. So what am I going to do? Get a job at a K-12 making 20-30K a year, or get a masters from a reputable school and make at least double that no matter where I work?

Granted, it's not as simple as all that. This field is competitive. You have to have motivation, ambition, and a good measure of talent to go anywhere. Just getting into Chapman demonstrates you have these attributes.

So while you're making your decision, bear in mind UCLA, USC, LMU, and/or Chapman carries much more weight on a job application when compared to SFSU. That said, this is the type of call only you can make. You know yourself better than any of us could hope to, so don't let an anonymous forum poster sway you one way or other.

 

[jthamilton]

If you want to teach, you should go to a school where you will get teaching experience.

SFSU is considered more academically rigorous, FWIW, and over the course of the 30 years you'll be paying it off, 50k will balloon to 150k with interest. There are calculators to do the math, so you can see for yourself. Not saying don't do it, just don't go into it without understanding exactly how much you'll end up paying.

People don't care where you went, they care about the work you do and have done. Film MFA grads are honestly a dime a dozen, so if you are interested in teaching fairly soon after you graduate, it would be best to develop your teaching experience along with your filmmaking experience.

Anyone interested in student loan cautionary tales (like me!) may find the comments at the end of this Times article interesting.

http://roomfordebate.blogs.nyt...udent%20loans&st=cse

 

[Lame Forum Name]

Originally posted by jthamilton:
Film MFA grads are honestly a dime a dozen...

Are they?

 

[AshleyM]

Thanks, LFN and JT, for your thoughtful responses. You've both given me something to think about.

JT, I read some of your other posts - how many schools did you apply to? Did you hear back from any of them? I hope you got in to the school of your dreams!

If anyone else wants to jump in with their thoughts on the topic, I'm still weighing my options and would love to hear what you have to say.

Thanks again!!!

 

[Justin18]

Ashley,

You bring up an interesting point.

I think one major factor is the quality of the faculty and how well you groove with their personalities for the specific discipline that you want to concentrate on. Have you met/interviewed the faculty at SFSU or Chapman? Have you seen a portfolio of their work? Does it inspire you?

Cost is a tremendous concern for grad school in film. The NY Times blog above mentioned that education costs may be bubbling like loan payments did a couple years ago.

I think it was jthamilton who had a very useful post this spring that ran the numbers for loans.

A $120K loan would cost you ~$1000/month to repay if I remember correctly. Plus or minus a few hundred a month for the terms of the loan. Not sure what the number of years that was calculated for was tho.

That's a whopper of a loan payment, even if you're Ashley, and considering a $50K loan.

Ashley, it might be worth calling community colleges or checking their websites to see what you can expect to make as a film teacher there. Full-time available? Benefits? And how would this compare to your loans payments? How competitive are faculty positions in community college film depts.? Please post anyone who knows the answers to these questions.

In my case, I applied for 9 schools last fall. Had interviews with some great schools and some second-tier schools. Didn't ultimately gain admission into a school that I thought would be worth the $120K price tag this year, but I learned a lot that will hopefully help me next time.

I'm really trying to improve my portfolio this year and get into AFI, USC, or UCLA next year. Will take UCLA's online Professional Program for $4500 this year.

But the more I learn, the more I realize it's a "pull-yourself-up-by-the-bootstraps" industry. A great grad school will help, but it's def. no guarantee. The majority of aspiring filmmakers, with or without grad school, will not be able to support themselves doing it. Let's face it. That's the economic reality. But that realization is a lot scarier with a $120K debt.

Don't get me wrong, it'd be a dream come true to go to a film school of my choice. I'm still really hoping I can make it a reality. But.........I don't want to be forced into taking a corporate job just to pay off by film school debts. That would be hell for me. I would rather work as a janitor and have more free time to write with zero debt honestly. I don't even want to be forced into taking a PA job or a TV sitcom job that I don't want to do in order to pay off my debts. For me, writing spec sripts is like heaven, and I want the financial and time freedom to do that. So would grad school help or hinder a filmmaker's path? I'm still undecided.

Here's a link for screenwriters.
http://www.raymorton.com/sampl...MastersComposite.doc
I know I posted it elsewhere, but I feel it's really useful. If you don't feel like reading it, the jist of it is that people who graduated from the Top 5 film schools in screenwriting and were interviewed for this article felt very happy with the artistic accomplishments that they realized from attending a grad screenwriting program. However, they were unsatisfied with the job placement assistance received afterwards.

Again, I'm speaking as someone who would love to attend one of these programs. But that's a red flag for me if schools can't help most people land jobs + assignments after graduation that will allow them to pay off their debts and live comfortably. Yes, the onus is on the student to a large extent. I agree. But if your admissions committee feels like I would be artistically successful as a result of this grad program, but maybe not financially so, I would like to know that before entering the program and assuming a triple-cheeseburger with bacon of a debt. Because I value a balance of material prosperity and creative expression in my life.

 

[Lame Forum Name]

My personal justification for an MFA is thus: I have an expensive English degree that's completely unmarketable in and of itself. Most positions, even college-level teaching, etc, require a masters just to get your foot in the door. If I can make, say, $50K at some über-corporate job, when compared to 20-30K at a typical B.A. English job, then so be it, the degree will easily pay for itself.

I should mention that I'm not going into film school with the intention of becoming some big time, rake-in-the-cash hotshot. Would that be nice? Sure. Is it going to happen? No. Indeed, what turned me onto an MFA was the video game industry, which is generally looking for MFA screenwriting graduates to help develop the latest titles.

In other words, I know exactly what I'm trying to accomplish going in the door. It sounds like Ashley has a fairly defined career path as well. That, methinks, is half the battle.

As an aside, creative freedom and artistic control are luxuries I can't afford. Phrased another way, I think it's rather bold to cling to these supposed freedoms before you've got a foothold to stand on. It's like that old adage, "Only Americans expect to be happy."

 

[Jayimess]

That article is six years old...just saying.

There is no golden ticket into a job in the industry. Anyone who expects one with their diploma is deluded.

These schools have career services offices and events every year to promote new grads and their projects. They host amazing career fairs. They have festivals and distribution departments...or at least USC does.

What exactly are these schools supposed to do to guarantee jobs that allow people to live comfortable lives? Look at other art programs, not just film...you can't force or guarantee someone to pay you for your creative works. They'll either do it or they won't.

 

[jthamilton]

Hi Ashley. Haha, yes, I'm sort of the resident "don't go into insane amounts of debt!!!" crusader around here.

Yes, I am starting an MFA program in the fall, at one of the "name" schools with a good amount of non-loan financial aid. I will be taking on some debt, but nowhere even close to $100k. I am tremendously excited, and I feel very fortunate. I applied to 8 schools and was accepted to 6 of them.

LFM-"even college level teaching"?? College level teaching jobs (non-adjunct) are some of the most insanely hard to get jobs out there. And I know lots and lots of people who got average, good, and great jobs that they loved with nothing more than a liberal arts bachelors. In my experience, it's more about the skills you present than what your degree was in. I have humanities degree completely unrelated to the (desirable/competitive) industry in which I've worked since undergrad.

I think MFAs can be great, (obviously, since I've decided to do one) but I don't think having an MFA will get you a high paying job that would be inaccessible to a person with a BA. Especially corporate jobs. They care about your experience. An MFA could be a way to meet people that would lead to that experience, but so too could three years of work experience!

I think people should look at an MFA as an art degree rather than a professional degree that leads to a job. Of course, because often times people are spending so much money on the degree, they (rightfully) want it to lead to an income that will help them pay back their debts. So I don't know. Lots of people will say don't get a super expensive arts or humanities degree unless you are independently wealthy. As you can imagine, I think there's a good deal of wisdom in that advice. (See myriad other threads.)

 

[Justin18]

Well the age of the article in and of itself does not diminish the possibility that what people say in it may be true. In fact, these were graduates who were speaking of their experiences in better economic times.

You're right, people shouldn't expect a golden ticket to a job with grad school. Art is art. Marketing is marketing. You have to be highly talented at both in order to keep afloat (and maybe even thrive) financially in any field in which you sell your art. The responsibilty for nurturing a person who can be successful at art and marketing lies with both the person and the film school.

All that being said, I think that film schools in general have been less than forthcoming with the economic realities of life after graduation.

What is the reality of the loan payment situation for people 5 years out of film school? 10 years out? 20? 30?

What is the average income for grad film students after graduation if you shave off the top 5% and bottom 5% of all earners?

Where are these studies?

Schools aren't exactly bragging about these numbers in their marketing materials.

USC sounds like they're doing all they can to promote their students. They seem to really care.

But looking at the big picture, undergrad and grad film schools across the country are pumping out film majors by the thousands. Tuitions have reached exorbitant levels.

Hollywood consists of a few media conglomerates with a dozen or so people making decisions about a small number of films coming out each year.

Educators, and the American educational system in general, could be "out of touch." Let's face it. You shouldn't place full faith in what they tell you. Ask Isaac Asimov...."Self-education is...the only kind of education there is." Teachers are, after all, scared to death that someone would say, "What you're teaching isn't nearly worth the price tag of your school." What happens to their source of income then? Do you think they might perpetuate false myths to students just to keep their shweet jobs?

I think what many of us are worried about is this: Is film school (and higher education in general) a bubble waiting to burst, much like that housing bubble just went poppity, pop, pop?

All that being said, my stronger, emotional side says, 'Oh my God, oh my God, oh my God, I love writing, I love stories, I love film, I love the creative proces, I still wanna go to grad school for screenwriting. So I'm gonna apply again and probably go. Man, I'm a sucker

 

[Lame Forum Name]

LFM-"even college level teaching"?? College level teaching jobs (non-adjunct) are some of the most insanely hard to get jobs out there.

I realize that, but the topic of discussion was community college positions, which (in my experience) are far easier to land, and much less competitive.

Retuning to the overall vein of cynicism, most on this site understand what we're getting into. After all, we wouldn't have been accepted to highly competitive graduate programs if we didn't have at least two brain cells to rub together. It's a gamble (ie: will it or will it not be worth it). But so is an MBA, a PhD, a JD, an underwater basket weaving certificate, etc.

I would disagree with the fact that film grads are a "dime a dozen," being "pumped out in the thousands," etc. To my knowledge, there's only about ten decent grad film programs in the country (emphasis on decent). Each accepts between 12 and 32 fresh students a year for a given program. So we'll say, what, 200-250 MFAs a year?

That's enough where, yes, you do have to have a measure of distinction to put food on the table, etc. But I wouldn't call it a flood, like the aforementioned MBAs and JDs.

Returning to the idea of BA vs MFA, etc, sure, it would be easy to make decent money in a related or unrelated field. I did it for a year after graduation, no problem, but I generally have a knack for pulling in money when I have to. Which goes back to talent vs. "on paper" skill.

Thing is, I wanted to further my creative pursuits, to develop as a writer. To have two years of uninterrupted time to focus on technique and overall refinement. This is especially pertinent now, considering I'm unburdened by family, real financial obligations, etc. In other words, I want to do this while I still can. Don't want to be one of those folks who looks back on life and says "Damn, I had an opportunity, but flushed it to make a buck."

So yes, I, and I'm sure everyone else on here, knows that an MFA (in writing, of all things), requires some sticking out of the neck. But I have faith in myself, and my ability to make this degree work in my favor. Again, I'm not strolling in the door with my chest out, thinking I'll be sharing cocktails with Hollywood's finest on graduation day. Far from it. But I do believe this degree is a step down the road I want to be on, as opposed to a road I'm forced to be on -- if you follow.

The question that really needs to be asked is not so much "Will I be able to pay this off," but "Do I have enough faith in myself and my abilities, to the point where pursuing an MFA is the natural next step?"

(For the dissectors and dissenters, question two naturally absorbs question one.)

And if we fail to meet our goals, then what? Languish in debt? Start smoking crack? Nah. You hold your head up high and realize you've completed a masters program, which demonstrates more clout and ability than, what, 80-90% of people out there? Put that on your application, talk about the glory days, and ease your way into a comfy position.

Relax, in other words. Life isn't a series of internet snippets and statistics.

 

[Justin18]

For the sake of argument...I'm just doing this to clarify my own thinking.

Let's say you get into a top grad film school. Top 5. AFI, USC, UCLA, Columbia, NYU.

I would venture to say that even if you get into one of these Tope 5 scools, statistically speaking...you will NOT become a leading director, writer, or producer that has a high salary. Just too many students chasing too few positions.

However, for the sake of argument, let's say with everything you learned at school, you WILL work in the film industry in Hollywood.

OK, say you have $80K in loans to pay back after two years. Seems pretty reasonable, given the top film school sticker price minus some financial aid and savings.

Now, let's say you earn $75K a year in your median Hollywood job. Say a scriptwriter at a TV show.

Here's some links I just quickly Googled to confirm that:

http://www.hollywood-blog.net/...-not-what-you-think/

http://blogs.payscale.com/ask_...hollywood-write.html

http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=135351


OK, say you can find work as a scriptwriter 9 months out of the year. Again, pretty reasonable for this industry.

$75,000 X 75% of the year = $57,000.

Now slash 30% for taxes.

$57,000 - .3($57,000) = $40,000.

Now loan payments. A $120,000 loan means your paying about $1,000/month in repayments. So $80,000 in loans give you a monthly loan payment of, let's say $600, for the sake of easy numbers.

$40,000 - 12($600) = $33,000.

So how much do you have left?

$33,000/ year divided by 12 months =

$2750/month for savings + living expenses.

Whew! That's not as bad as I feared. Personally, I'm a little relieved.

You're not rich. But you're doing something you really like, even if it's not the perfect Hollywood job that you wanted.

With prices in LA, you wouldn't be able to save much. But it's a start.

But if you wanted to start a family or improve your quality of life, you'd be betting on your chances of moving from that Hollywood writer position into a top 5-10% Hollywood writer job, where you're making 6 or 7 figures.

With your current job, you'd be able to save, what? $1,000 a month. Living very economically. That's cool now, but in 10 years it might be a little thin.

I guess as an economic question, this is what it comes down to for me: Will film school give me the skills I need to eventually push me into that top 5-10% brackets of Hollywood earners? Or would I be just as likely to reach that level, or even more likely, pulling myself up by the bootstraps without the debt? Either way I'd be "investing in myself." But it depends on each person and their individual natures. There are good investments and bad investments in oneself.

I'd be content with a $75,000/year job in Hollywood with loan repayments. But not for the rest of my life.

 

[Lame Forum Name]

The point I've been subtly trying to make during our little discourse here: There are other options besides a Hollywood job. Indeed, fixating on a Hollywood job is probably a recipe for disaster.

We have, let's see, teaching available to us. Video games. The list goes on. You'll be juggling/running numbers 'till you're blue in the face, regardless of what higher degree you pursue (another point I've subtly tried to make).

So either pursue one if it's right for you, or don't.

A little post-script I'd like to throw in: Columbia and NYU are both, you guessed it, New York schools, separated from that beloved Hollywood by thousands of miles. Even NYU calls its program "dramatic writing." I dare say they're geared more towards traditional play writing, and aren't as connected to the mysterious "industry." Although, don't get me wrong, they're excellent schools.

If I had to pick a top five, for screenwriting, it'd probably read as follows:

USC
UCLA
LMU
Chapman
NYU

See this article for a bit more discussion. independent: The 10 Best Academic Programs for Aspiring Screenwriters

 

[Suzako]

I agree with Lame Forum Name.

The question is do you Want to go to graduate school in film and do you feel you can afford to go to graduate school? People pay for it in different ways and people take out different amounts of loans. People also think about going to grad school for many different reasons. But if you don't want to do it, you don't have to.

No degree, be it law, medical, MBA, can guarantee a fulfilling life, a six-digit job and a life free of debt.

 

[Jayimess]

Justin18, I daresay that if your only reason to go to film school, or even to make movies, is to make it to the top 5-10 per cent of Hollywood wage earners, you're likely to be disappointed no matter what you do.

Personally, I made good money at a job I hated without so much as a bachelors. I will not turn down such extreme financial success, don't get me wrong, but if I can make the same amount of money or more doing what I love as I did doing something I hated, I feel my journey was worthwhile.

FILM SCHOOL DOES NOT MAKE YOUR CAREER.

 

[Justin18]

Jayimess, I agree that if you're faced with...

crappy job for X dollars = writing job for X dollars

...by all means take the writing job if you like writing.

Film school is worth it for you as long as A) you go into it with goals you have personally defined that reflect your values, B) the school helps you meet those goals, and C) you do your best to achieve those goals, in grad school + beyond. The results are really out of one's control. The process is what counts.


No, economically making it into the top 5-10% of Hollywood earners is not my ONLY goal.

The pursuit of material goods as an end in and of itself is a lower instinct.

I have goals that I place higher emphasis on that have more humanistic and spiritual components to them.

But yes, economic success in this field is A GOAL.

This is capitalism. The person with capital will have more control than the person with less capital. No, it's not the optimal form of social organization. But it's America. It's 2009. And that's the system we live in.

So to a certain extent, you have to play the game, or the game plays you.


But I think a lot of people on this board, myself included, have not been considering grad film school as an ECONOMIC INVESTMENT. Because that's a large part of what it is.

Grad film school is about growing as a person. Expressing yourself. Changing the collective imagination through storytelling.

But it's also a preparation for a career. You will, hopefully, make your living off of film.

As with any investment, you have to analyze it.

In terms of weighing the economic benefits of this decision, groupthink is rampant on this board. The assumption is, if you get into a top grad film school....Go, Go, Go. Don't look back.

But the reality is that film school is in part an economic investment. Analyzing this investment is healthy.

I didn't know 90% of those working in the Hollywood industry (or more) are at the salary level of a high school teacher. Today I found that out. Take it for what its worth. But weigh it against any massive loans taken out.

 

[Jayimess]

Justin, you just made this entire comment about a playing a game, etc, etc. Yet you lament schools for not having stronger job placement.

Then you talk about growing as a person.

Make up your mind.

It's art school. You're going to learn to harness your creativity. The industry is completely unpredictable. Investment, yes. Sure thing? No way.

And again, I was saying that to attend film school with the expectation of being a gajillionaire in five to ten years is unrealistic, and will likely lead to heartbreak. Nothing wrong with dreams, but if you don't have a firm grasp or knowledge of reality, you will be sad sooner than you realize. So do your research and figure out the odds...I made much more than a high school teacher at my job of misery, much, much more. And I still went for it, and I have no delusions of grandeur.

The dream of filmmaking, to many of us, comes from the fact that it's something we would do, and already do for free. To get paid for our passion/hobby=come in the pants bliss.

I still absolutely believe that attending USC has brought me that much closer to sticky pants...but the job placement stuff you may find at a b-school or law school just absolutely doesn't apply here.

 

[Suzako]

I sort of feel like if you are so skeptical of going to an MFA program . . . then don't go. Its just not for you.

There seems to be a dynamic here, Justin, where you are assuming that "the groupthink rampant on this board" is that we all think an MFA will lead to money and glory.

But it also seems that you perhaps did not realize that grad school would cost money (and if you don't have the money, that would translate to loans) and now are very concerned that others don't realize this. School costs money. Schools are not cheating people by charging money. They also are not making wild promises of six-figure success.

Before I applied to school, I had to seriously think about my finances and how I could afford to pay for it. It was a tough decision.

I tend to assume that other people on these boards are aware that school costs money and have made a similar evaluation of their desire to get an MFA and their personal financial situations.

 

[Lame Forum Name]

I'd be content with a $75,000/year job in Hollywood with loan repayments.

Feel fortunate to get 50K a year out of grad school, let alone content.

I don't mean to throw this out there, as I know how it might sound, but have you yet been accepted into a program? From everything I'm gathering, you haven't applied, let alone been accepted, let alone lent any pressing thought to attending.

How 'bout this: Apply. Becoming an MFA candidate to begin with is perhaps the biggest hurdle, given the competition. All you're out is the application fees if you choose not to attend. When/if you get an acceptance letter, I'm sure the tune will change a bit. In the mean time, these forums really aren't meant as a springboard for stream-of-consciousness meditations.

 

[Justin18]

All I'm saying is.....as a question of whether or not it's an economically sound investment..."to go or not to go" to film school should be open to debate.

I'm still contradicted myself.

I'm writing spec scripts.

I don't know if I'd be better off writing in grad school or out of it.